I just acquired a Wojnicki glass rod. I spent about 30 minutes casting it on the lawn this morning. It's Mario's 7'7" 5 wt. and it's a very smooth casting rod with a lot of power,really as nice a rod as I've ever had the pleasure to cast. On his website Mario decribes the action as Medium-Fast. My experience is limited to just a handful of contemporary glass rods but it seemed to me it was on the slow side of medium. I checked Steffen's website and he describes his glass rods as Slow-Medium and to me they seem more on the fast side of medium,certainly faster than the "Medium-Fast" Wojnicki. I wonder if this difference is due to the fact that Mario's makes Split Cane rods and compared to cane his glass is Medium-Fast and that Steffen started with graphite and compared to graphite his glass is Slow-Medium.I wonder if this is generally true among rod makers, that is those whose primary interest is boo consider glass fast and those whose primary interest is graphite feel that glass is slow?
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Slow,Fast or Medium?
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 frogmorton |
Slow,Fast or Medium? |
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Master Guide
Posts: 330 (11/06/09 00:07:07) |
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LeoCreek |
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Master Guide
Posts: 289 (11/06/09 01:29:24) |
Good observations and questions. I've never cast any or Mario's rods, so cannot comment about their action.
I do think that some of the rodmakers tend to describe their rods' "actions" in terms of how they feel in the big scheme of things...as in comparison to rods of different materials, to give an idea to folks who have cast lots of rods of different materials. This might be the general idea of Mark Steffen describing his fiberglass rods as "medium-slow", but I'm guessing. While other rodmakers might be using a comparison strictly to other rods made of the same material. Whereas other rodmakers might be describing their rods' actions in a more technical sense, like the Common Cents concept of action completely correlating to where in the rod the initial bend takes place. While the Common Cents idea of ERN (Effective rod number) and power ratings can be very useful, the associated definition of "action" kind of drives me crazy, because it does nothing to describe the "feel" of the rod (which incorporates so much more, like the recovery rate, blank material, blank weight, overall taper design, etc.). Just because 2 blanks/rods have nearly identical technical "action" figures and power ratings doesn't mean they are necessarily going to "feel" that similar during casting and fishing. Historically, most folks equate "action" to a combination of feel, overall flex under load, recovery rate, etc., but according to the Common Cents system this is all wrong. I'm sorry for the rant, and while I know that there are bonafide scientific criteria/measurements that go into rod tapers, there are some things in life that cannot be defined so easily. Just don't make the mistake of trying to equate "action" with feel. Ha! I have a Steffen rod and a Fenwick rod that both cast the same line about the same distance with the same effort. They might both be described as medium-fast (for glass...or even technically, based on where initial bend occurs), but man do they feel different. And I have graphite rods that have an initial bend ("action") nearly identical to my Steffen and Fenwick...but they sure don't feel very much like my glass rods in casting and fishing. Oh well, I think I've clouded the issue enough (like a freaking politician, or corporate CEO giving a state of the company speech). Sorry! |
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gearboy |
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Master Guide
Posts: 445 (11/06/09 05:40:47) |
Frog, An excellent observation and one that should receive lots of posts. I think you're correct in the way both Mark and Mario label their individual
rods. One from the fast/graphite world and the other from the slower/bamboo world, relative I guess.
It's also interesting how each of us prefer or dislike a particular action. For example, most folks here label a rod's action as sweet if it tends to be on the slower side of medium, while others may call it a dog or a wet noodle. On the other hand if it's on the faster side of medium some folks say it is crisp while others may say it's too fast. A rod that I recently cast that falls into this observation is a rod that receives much love here and that's the FF79. I just cast my first one and found it to be in the dog/wet noodle group, for me, since I prefer a crisper action, Steffen type action.
Last Edited By: gearboy
11/06/09 05:45:48.
Edited 1 times.
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fred1369 |
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Master Guide
Posts: 273 (11/06/09 07:45:25) |
Technically speaking as a rod action standardization... slow, medium, fast, and all the others in between... would be considered how much of the rod/tip is
working in a cast. There's not really a standard to this, especially when sweet, smooth, and other terms come into the mix. Sweet or smooth would be
considered a nice loading and feeling rod with within your casting stroke. Crisp or lively is a quick recovering rod with little tip bounce. All the
descriptions can be used for slow to fast rods. Then fiberglass comes into play with fast for glass, etc. There are fast bamboo rods, just as there are slow
graphite rods. Dry fly action, modified dry fly, parabolic, progressive... it can all get confusing. I could be wrong, but there isn't really a
standardization in rod action description... it's too boring! I would like to see a standard... maybe a rod action flex chart, with certain sized weight
(the weight can be for each line size) and the same rod angle. That would show a load at a certain point and tell the consumer if the tip is flat or soft. If
the rod is progressive or locks up at a certain point. That would tell a little about the rod action, just as the rod maker could articulate his design with
other words to explain the tip... soft, flat, etc. The lockup point of the progression for the action... what part of the rod is working, etc. All this could
be subject to an opinion also, but...
I don't know if I made sense of rod actions, or confused everyone and myself farther... so, I'll stop rambling. I think the most important part is how the rod feels to you the angler. One man's treasure is another man's booty. |
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 Cameron |
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Posts: 3829 (11/06/09 08:31:13)
Administrator &
Chat Room Host |
Fellows...the start of another interesting thread. I have been wondering the same thing lately since some on this board say that Steffen rods are slower than
McFarland rods while others say the opposite.
I agree that it's subjective. I've got a Steffen 8 1/2 foot 5/6 weight on order and it will be interesting how it feels. |
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Craig |
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Sport
Posts: 52 (11/06/09 12:21:21) |
Wow, toughest question in flyfishing. I try not to even think of this issue - - it makes my head hurt. I own about 18 fly rods, which probably places me at
the lower end of ownership among regular users of this site. Mine are about evenly split between fiberglass and graphite. Don't own a bamboo rod, but
have fished with them a bit. Among my collection I do have bookends that are meaningful only to me. Here are two of the several 5-weight rods I have:
"slow" = 8.5 foot SF-era Winston Stalker; "fast" = 9-foot Loomis GLX. All else is between those extremes in my limited collection. How do
these two divergent rods end up being listed as using the same line weight when one is very "limber" and the other very "stiff"? The thing
that complicates this, in my simple mind, is the amount of line you intend to use. The Stalker almost collapses when I try to cast more than 45 feet of line
and, to be honest, that's about the point where the Loomis begins to feel right. If I were going to use both rods at 30 feet, and that's all, I would
probably use a 6 or 7 weight line on the Loomis and a 4 weight on the Stalker.
See, my head hurts already. |
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waynebh |
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Master Guide
Posts: 298 (11/06/09 16:52:42) |
I think action as a term describing fly rods or any rod for the matter is relative, depends on the point of view of the one using the term. I think in
Frogmorton's example he's right on Mario Wojinicki is comparing his glass rod to bamboo and Mark Steffen is comparing his glass rods to graphite. So
depending on what you are comparing the rod with or what you use as a "reference" will determine where you place that particular rod's action
compared to you "reference."
For me I need to know where a particular rod is compared to some rod I have a relative action opinion of. As an example the fastest fiberglass fly rods I own and have cast are the Scientific Angler's System rods, for me they are the fastest glass rods I've experienced and are thus "fast" for fiberglass. I have no experience with bamboo but expect most will be slower than most fiberglass fly rods. Returning to the Scientific Anglers system rods, compared to the slowest graphite fly rods, they are either slightly slower or equal in rod action. The graphite fly rods that I consider "slowest" are typically labeled "medium to medium fast" examples being TFO Pro, Lefty Kreh signature, and the translucent green Forecast blanks. So in conclusion, for me rod action will always be a "relative" term that I need some benchmark rod to compare with. Wayne |
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whrlpool |
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Master Guide
Posts: 1087 (11/06/09 17:47:12) |
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rvreclus |
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Master Guide
Posts: 401 (11/07/09 10:10:13) |
Waynebh,
Wrote "So in conclusion, for me rod action will always be a "relative" term that I need some benchmark rod to compare with. " I would agree with this. The rod makers can't agree and I don't believe there is an agreed upon method to determine "Action". It's still very subjective. It's off to the beach, oceans stirred up enough, patterns are approaching Winter time, Perch and surf. Next week Steelhead along the coast. Respectfully rvreclus |
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Bamboozle |
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Guide
Posts: 197 (11/10/09 06:08:27) |
What is fast in world of racing cars?
In the 1920's, 100mph was considered fast... ..the same thing goes for rods. Today's "standards" are WAY different from the standards of 20-30 years ago and nowhere is that more apparent than with bamboo. What was medium then is slow today. FUBO |
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fred1369 |
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Master Guide
Posts: 281 (11/10/09 08:19:46) |
Each rod maker uses a different approach to describing their rod actions, Tom Morgan describes his rods very well and doesn't really use standardized terms
like slow, medium, or fast. The consumer can understand the rod action and its purpose that way. Without a true standard, rod actions are subjective at best.
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pearow |
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Master Guide
Posts: 1809 (11/10/09 09:16:18) |
Leo Creek, I think you are right on about the CCS method, but it does give you some kind of definitive marks of comparison, but that is all. The
"feel" is the subjective component that eludes satisfactory explanation. Orvis tried to narrow it down some with their "flex numbers" but
it still is up to the comparative feel of the individual caster, which may be why I fish a #4dt with a particular rod and you might feel it performs better
with a wf#5. I consider my wife a beautiful woman, a TEN in my numbering system, but she may only be a high 2 to the old boy who rubbed the butter on Sophia
Loren-p-
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